And I learned that I'm not the only one disgusted over the relationship between many men, women, and the whole feminist/men are shit/only good for kicking around/child support/mowing the lawn thing.
I firmly believe it's one of the reasons why society is such a mess, this attitude toward the males of the species. I know there are tons of other problems and issues, but I think this one is an underlying cause of a lot of other things. I really do.
Years and years ago, Eric and I eagerly watched every episode of Home Improvement, but noticed a trend as the show continued. Most episodes were a variation of the 'my husband is so stupid' theme. It got old. We finally stopped watching in disgust, LONG before the series was over.
On Christmas Day, Suz dropped a link to this article on The Futurist.
(I gave you the Christmas Day date, because for some reason, the post won't link all by itself.)
Go read the article if you have time.
It's long and there are many other articles/blog posts/commentaries linked to it.
I plan to go back and do more reading, but I don't have to read all of those links to understand the basic issue.
I'm sure most of the people who read here won't have to, either.
Here's what I think. (That's why you visit here, right? To find out what I think?)
While shopping in a thrift store on a lazy Sunday afternoon a long time ago, I inadvertently got caught in a discussion between a woman and her mother about the younger woman's husband.
A word about this younger woman. She was fat. I certainly can't afford to say anything derogatory about a simple weight issue, but she was fat with an attitude. She was wearing a too tight shirt that allowed the rolls around her middle to hang out... over the waistband of her too-tight corduroy jeans. From two aisles away I could smell sweat. Her hair was oily and hung in disarray around her face, and she just came across as a really hateful person.
She was talking to her mom about her husband, and they were pretty much agreeing (loudly and stridently) that all men were shitheads.
And the gentleman who was looking at shirts in the same aisle as I was looked like he wanted to say something, but he did not. Several times.
And finally the young woman said TO HIM, "I bet you're a stupid jerk sometimes, too, aren't you? Just like ALL men."
He was taken aback, but responded a lot more politely than I would have, "I guess I would be a jerk if I had you to come home to."
She sputtered. Turned to me, expecting me to take her side, I think.
"Well what do YOU think?" she said, abrasively.
And I said what I've said so many times before.
"I married a good man. He is good to me, good to our children, and there is no one I'd rather be with.'
I think I pissed her off, although she didn't have anything to say. She just waddled off with her equally stupid mother.
I once wrote about a weekend event with my 1st Girl Scout troop. Moms went along. Girls were banished to the upstairs of the facility, while the moms sat around and bashed pretty much everything. They hated their daughter's schools. The constant fundraisers, this teacher and that, some of the things being taught... there was no main theme.
That is, until they got to their husbands. And oh my god was that a trip! Each one was convinced she'd married a big, stupid jerk. Worthless. Only worth staying with for the sake of the children. The stuff they said about the men they'd chosen to marry to a bunch of other harpies was utterly astounding. I got up and left the room. I didn't really want to hear it, and knew there wasn't anything I could say to explain what I was thinking.
I married a really wonderful man. Someone who has a great deal of integrity both personally and professionally. Someone who would do absolutely anything in the world for his children or his wife. I know for certain that he doesn't spend even a moment saying bad things about me. Ever. And whatever little faults he has are really nothing. And definitely not something I'd share with a bunch of snotty women like that bunch.
But I always wonder when I hear women talking about what jerks their husbands are.
Was he a jerk when you married him? Or has treating him like shit and talking behind his back made him bitter and angry? This is the man you chose to marry and in most cases, be the father of your children. Isn't there anything you could do to improve your relationship with him? Or are you just sitting there on your throne expecting him to do all the work on the relationship?
One of the 'wives' involved in the conversation on that long ago excursion basically said her husband was screwing around, which was fine with her because then he wasn't bothering HER for sex, and "as long as he pays the mortgage, I don't really care."
I have no idea if they're still married. I hope for his sake that they're not.
While this discussion was going on, one girl or another would wander down the stairs seeking attention from her mom, and the other moms would go right on talking. In front of the child. Thereby setting up the next generation to talk shit about their husbands.
::sigh::
So what are your thoughts?
I say treat your husband like the man he is, and he will actually BE that man. If you're a jerk, you sort of deserve his scorn/anger/disinterest.
Agreed completely, my friend. I treat my husband with love and respect and get the same in return. Clearly there are some unpleasant, unkind people out there--men AND women--but most of the time, I have found that whenever you treat someone well, husband, neighbor, co worker, clerk, whatever--you will get the same in return.
ReplyDeleteAMEN!! AMEN!!! AMEN!! I have a small circle of friends here for JUST that reason.. You would not believe the wives here.. They talk so bad about their husbands.
ReplyDeleteI married a wonderful man, and he is an amazing father!!
Glad you got a good egg too!
I'll skirt around this issue and just say:
ReplyDeleteKudos to the both of you.
You both learned long ago to respect yourselves first and in turn got the respect you both deserved, :0)
(((hugs)))Pat
I married a putz. The alcohol made him a mean putz. And when we divorced, he was still the same, but worse.
ReplyDeleteTony is a good man. And the reason I am happy with him is because I am happy with myself. We are both accountable for our own actions.
Which is what I think is really the problem with society today. No one wants to be accountable for their actions. That woman needs to own the decisions that got her into an unhappy marriage, and her part in keeping it that way.
And that's what I think. Because, that's why I comment, right? So you can know what I think. :)
I married my best friend and would rather spend my time with him than anyone else. I feel this way even after 30 years of marriage and 34 years of being together. Do we have annoying habits that drive each other crazy? Of course we do! Most times we just laugh about it (afterwards) but there is no "deal breaker" in our relationship. Neither of us would do anything to hurt the other on purpose. Ever. Why does it work so well for us? Wish I knew. Wish I could bottle it and sell it, too! If I were to speculate I would say that the most important part of our marriage is respectfulness.
ReplyDeleteI also cannot stand to see these TV shows or movies where the dad always appears to be a doofus, the kids are smart asses and the mom is a total bitch. What are we teaching our kids?
Every once in a while, my husband makes me really mad and I send my very close friends an email, just to vent. I always explain the situation to them and take part of the blame, it's cathartic. I'm not even sure that a response is necessary, other than ' I hear you'. I have a good one, I really do, but he goes from frustrated to mean pretty quickly. Verbally, you know calling me the b word, because he knows it will derail the conversation that he doesn't want to have. He knows it is a problem. It isn't conscious, but it works. He fully admits it. Yesterday was a real vacation day for him (the first day he started feeling better on his actual vacation) and I gave him a hug and told him thank you for going to work, and he squeezed me really tight and said thank you for staying home. We each do our share and that's what counts.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you whole heartedly. I hate when women sit around and talk about how bad their husbands are. I am married to my best friend and love him deeply. I've had some legitimate complaints but would never just bash him. When we went through a rough patch I had a hard time keeping my mouth shut but I only complained to my sister. Everyone needs to vent sometimes.
ReplyDeleteI also hate when parents bash their kids.
I feel like in this world our family is the only thing we can really count on. I tell my kids that That is why we have to be nice to eachother.
The Big Tuna and I have always had a firm rule about fighting. We don't argue very often but we have never in 30 years called each other a name like jerk, asshole or bitch.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the link, Ami! "They Mysandry Bubble" was a huge eye opener for me. I think we've all been aware of this trend in a piecemeal way for years, and "The Mysandry Bubble" does a great job of tying it all together. Good women (especially us older gals who've lived in relative financial security) are largely unaware of how pervasive it has become. Thanks to our security (provided in large part by our husbands) we're sheltered from most of it. We're far from perfect and we're certainly naive, but I think we have an obligation to stand up and PUBLICLY give men credit.
ReplyDeleteA tangent: There is a subculture of religious women who do this because "the Bible tells them to." They are dismissed by secular women as being "under the thumb of a patriarchal religion." It doesn't have to be a religious issue, and in fact I think it shouldn't be. Cooperation and mutual support between the sexes is absolutely vital to society. Any woman who thinks "it's not my problem," need only look around at who her kids are likely to marry.
Sorry for the rant...
;)
I think I still carry the scars from the years of mental and verbal abuse from my ex-wife...
ReplyDeleteMy big mistake?
I loved her... go figure...
~shoes~
I don't do that. now and then I will talk with a girlfriend , whe Martin and I have had a tiff, just to vent . but even then I preface it with "I am just hurt.angry/whatever right now" My mom as much as I love her has bashed my dad for years, and the same with Martins mom and dad his mom can be terrible to and about his dad . but if they even thought about leaving these women they would absolutly come unglued!they want to vent and talk a good game but put thier money where thier mouth is???? I doubt it
ReplyDeleteThe blog post that you linked to contains some pretty offensive stuff, and most of the links appear to be dead, so it's difficult to determine where the writer got his statistics which are questionable, to say the least. Respect, particularly in marriage, is a 2-way street, but that blog post demonstrates a serious deficit of that quality. I'd be willing to bet that if I showed my husband that screed, he'd agree with me that the writer is a jerk.
ReplyDeleteI agree that there is a climate of male-bashing in our culture and one doesn't have to look hard to find it. But our culture still treats women far worse than men, though things are slowly getting better. Spewing nastiness doesn't help anyone, regardless of which side- feminist or MRA (Men's Rights Advocates)- you favor.
Ellen
This is something my husband and I talk about often. The trend on tv esp in commercials that it is always "stupid helpless dad" syndrome. I also hate when certain women bash their husbands and talk crap. I always think they chose him so what does that say about THEM? My husband is not perfect but he is capable, handy, intelligent, and respectful. I wouldn't have married, or stay married, if he wasn't all those things. Some women should fix things or move on if their hubbies really do suck thatbadly.
ReplyDeleteI married my best friend, or 'soul-mate', whatever that means, 46+ years ago. We've had our spats over the years, but we are still respectful, and we laugh together almost every day. I wouldn't trade him for any one or anything!
ReplyDelete"But our culture still treats women far worse than men, though things are slowly getting better."
ReplyDeleteAfter doing some research, I disagree. This is the naivete I was talking about. Women INVITE society to treat us badly, by making stupid choices. Then we whine about it and demand that "society" make it better. We sleep with and/or marry irresponsible bad boys who flatter us to pieces and sweep us off our feet, and then we wonder why we're stuck with irresponsible bad boys. But we're not really stuck, are we? The law is on our side; we can escape those hideous situations that WE helped to create, with few consequences. (Do some research on the mechanics of "divorce theft.") Back in the "bad old days," young women accepted the protection of their patriarchal families, and listened to the wise marriage advice offered by their mothers and grandmothers. This practice is now considered pathetically archaic, and women are "free" to act on their fairy-tale-inspired whims.
If society actually treated us worse than men, or even equal to men, we'd have to wise up in a hurry and either support ourselves (w/out government assistance or child support payments) or marry reliable, loyal, productive men (you know, those boring ones) the FIRST time around, and we'd have to stick with them, even when we don't feel "fulfiiiiilled." We'd have to be nice to them too, so they won't go looking to trade up. ("Trading up" wouldn't be so easy for us if we had to support ourselves between men.) Instead we turn our noses up at them while we chase fun and exciting possibilities.
You know that old saw about "more women than men go to college, but women still make less money than men?" It's true, because women choose to major in lower paying (easier) fields. Even in high-paying fields, female applicants negotiate lower starting salaries. Ever wonder why this country is full of companies who waste 25% more payroll dollars on male employees, when hiring women would be more profitable? The answer is simple: qualifications. Most women don't bother to learn top-earning skills, even though we have the educational opportunities. Why should we? We can simply marry or live with a man who does the hard part for us.
"Violence against women?" We willfully put ourselves at risk for at least 50% of it, because we now have the right to our twisted version of "independence." We date or marry abusers, get drunk at frat parties; we blithely go places where lone females are considered prey. (Predation is a part of human nature - laws don't prevent it.) We choose not to PREVENT harm to ourselves, because we assume that the law will protect us from the consequences of our risky behavior. And by and large, it does.
My great aunt was a "career girl," who lived and died a spinster. (I suspect she didn't die a virgin, due to some of the lingere she left behind.) She went to college, worked to support herself, and saved for her own retirement. When she was young she had female roomies, and when she could better afford a place of her own, she lived alone. She was never raped, abused or victimized in any way by any man, because she made prudent decisions regarding her lifestyle. My sister 50-year-old sister is on the same track. Both have lived very full, truly independent lives. I deeply respect these women. Ironically, they have lived like "confirmed bachelors."
I certainly agree with you about spewing nastiness. The female version of this is so deeply ingrained in our culture that we don't even notice it anymore. Yet we find ourselves shocked and appalled when we hear a man say the the exact same "offensive stuff" about women, that society has been saying about men for decades. Our hypocrisy runs very very deep.
Eric and I were discussing this last night, and he said that he thinks the lack of religion in society has played a part in all of the moral degradation, including how our culture treats women AND men.
ReplyDeleteI don't necessarily agree that a person needs to be exposed to religion, since there's a lot of scary stuff there, too, but I sort of understand what he means.
He doesn't think everyone needs to be religious, but he said that people used to be afraid of a consequence for hurting someone else,(punishment by God) and now there aren't any consequences for it.
He was more eloquent about it, and put it into better words/more expanded thoughts.
He doesn't like men who treat women badly, and doesn't like women who treat men badly. Very fair minded, which is one more reason I like him.
I think there's a general lack of respect for anyone and everyone in our society today. It's really sort of scary to me how prevalent it is.
Which could be a whole 'nother post.
Oh, and one more thing.
ReplyDeleteI totally understand that some men are just assholes. Pure and simple.
Some women are, too. And once in awhile, disliking one of either sex is a pretty reasonable idea.
I'm trying (not necessarily successfully) to speak in more general terms here.
I just think that we (collectively) could do better.
I agree. Giving respect deserves getting respect. Spouses should love one another and not talk bad about the other one.
ReplyDeleteWhether or not all men are jerks is completely subjective. Definitely agree that respect begets respect.
ReplyDeleteYou won't hear me saying derogatory things about my ex-husband, for example. He's my ex only because we were not compatible. He's still a really, really nice guy. Too nice. :)
I've known jerks - I've watched the way they treat my sister or friends, and I've said as much. But no, not all men are jerks. My husband adores me and takes care of me, and makes "get in the kitchen and make me a sammich" jokes.
I love that.
I agree. (I feel the same way about shows that demean women) I pick at my hubby, in fun, but he's a wonderful man/human being. I'm the one that feels fortunate to have him, he could have done much better!
ReplyDeleteMarried 22 years, blissfully divorced 18 years. I never said anything negative about her to my relatives, our children, or outsiders. Wish she were the same. Her bitching about me to our sons was especially damaging.
ReplyDeleteAfter 22 years of non stop, "Now I've got you, you SOB" games, she left me for someone she thought was wealthy. I wanted to send him a thank you card but was afraid he would send her back. Six months later he tried.
I have friends now married forty eight years. I know them well enough to know many of their problems. I've never seen them present less than a united front to the world.
Honor your spouse at all times. When you bash your spouse around others, you are showing your own lack of character.
I agree with you. That is just such a tired old way of thinking.... its such a stereotype. Its like the old ball and chain kinda mentality as well. She must have married the only man who would marry her.... an idiot!
ReplyDeleteAnd I really feel I must address the issue Julianna brought up... when someone is an alcoholic, they can turn into something horrible.
ReplyDeleteWhich, when coupled with some people's natural ability to be a complete asshole, can make an awful creature.
And it doesn't matter how nice you are to someone like that. You will always end up getting kicked in the ass.
Yep. Addiction is a game-changer.
ReplyDeleteMy husband and I went out to a bar to see a friend of ours play with his band on New Year's Eve. We hung out with one of my husband's old buddies (recently divorced) who said he'd been "studying how to read women" by way of books or websites or who knows what nonsense. At some point in the night, I whined about my chapped lips and said I wished I'd brought my lip gloss from the car. My husband's buddy kept insisting my husband should go to the car (in the 20 degree, 40mph wind) and get it for me, even after I said repeatedly that I didn't really want it and didn't have a mirror anyhow and to just forget it. My husband said, "She's got two legs; if she wants the damn lip gloss, she can get it herself." His buddy kept saying, "You've got a lot to learn," and then quietly telling me, "I'll teach him." Thanks, my divorced friend, but I think we're doing okay without your advice.
ReplyDeleteOn the way home, we talked at length about women expecting men to jump through hoops for them, and how frequently they make their demands as well as demeaning comments *in front of their friends*. That and the trash talking is like some kind of twisted power trip - proving that I'm in total control of this poor, useless bastard. Honey, your vagina isn't that special.
I do not want a lap dog or a doormat (nor will I be one). I dated a few "nice guys" that were like that, and honestly I just can't respect anyone that doesn't respect themselves. My husband isn't perfect, and we've had our issues, but I wouldn't demean him, and I wouldn't respect him if he tolerated being treated that way.